AMY GALLO: Okay, time for Ask the Amys.
AMY BERNSTEIN: This is when listeners send us their dilemmas. They may be interpersonal, they may be with their managers, they may be about their own professional development, and we chew them over and share our thoughts.
AMY GALLO: That’s right. And today’s questions are around returning from maternity leave, dealing with an unsupportive manager, being taken seriously as a first-time manager, plus a couple other things.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Let’s start with a question about returning to work after having a baby.
AMY GALLO: Yeah. Okay, so I’m going to read this one to you.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Alright.
AMY GALLO: This is from a listener who is back at work pretty recently, and she asks, “How can a woman returning from a career break or maternity leave effectively handle comments or advice from senior leaders such as, ‘Take it slow. Your family is important,’ or ‘don’t pressure yourself’ when you express interest in taking on more responsibilities or pursuing growth opportunities. As a new mother, I find myself second-guessing whether I should aspire for growth or take on challenges, especially after receiving well-meaning advice to just slow down. How can I balance these external perspectives with my own ambitions?”
AMY BERNSTEIN: Well, let’s start with stop second-guessing yourself.
AMY GALLO: Yes.
AMY BERNSTEIN: No one knows you better than you know yourself, right?
AMY GALLO: Yes.
AMY BERNSTEIN: So in the moment you can say, “No, I’m pretty sure I want to take this on.” And if the person keeps pressing, you can say with a smile on your face, “If I were returning from paternity leave, would you be saying this to me?”
AMY GALLO: Right.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Right?
AMY GALLO: Yeah. Well, and I’d like even to draw contrast to say, “I know some people like to slow down after they have kids.” Don’t say women. “I know some people like to slow down after they have kids. That’s not where I’m at right now. So, I’d love to talk about my opportunities. How can I drive this forward?”
AMY BERNSTEIN: At some point you have to move along, and so changing the subject to topic A, which is, “I want to take on this responsibility. Here’s how I’m thinking about it.” No excuses. No, “I know I’m just back from having a baby.” No, “I know I have a lot of responsibilities.” You have to explain that. You’re professional, right?
AMY GALLO: Yeah. And I think the other thing, because if we assume the comments are well-meaning, it may be that that person’s experience was that they wanted to slow down. So, you might even ask them questions. “Oh, what was it like for you after you returned to having kids? What were your challenges? Oh, I think I’m in a different position. Here’s where I am. This is what I’m thinking.” So just acknowledging that they’re probably giving you advice from their own perspective—’cause that’s what most of us do—but that it may not be relevant to you. And she may have to even say, “You know what? I’ll make the call about the pace at which I want to go, but I have a lot of ambitions. Let’s talk about how you can support me in those.”
AMY BERNSTEIN: But do remember it probably comes from a good place.
AMY GALLO: Even if misguided.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Even if it’s misguided and fantastically annoying.
AMY GALLO: Alright, should we do another one?
AMY BERNSTEIN: Yeah. This one is about being taken seriously as a first-time manager. So, I’ll read you the questions.
AMY GALLO: Okay.
AMY BERNSTEIN: “I’ve recently had a big promotion and have transitioned from an individual contributor to a people manager overnight. I’m now managing 43 people.” Good lord. That’s a lot of people.
AMY GALLO: That’s a lot of people.
AMY BERNSTEIN: “I’ve had no training, preparation, or guidance from my company. The team is great with a wonderful culture and vibe, but they’re not the most productive. How do I navigate this new role, be productive, solve problems, and move projects forward without being perceived as an a-hole? I am a nice person and love people, but need to move projects forward and show that I am a competent manager.” Solve that problem, Amy.
AMY GALLO: That’s an easy one. Well, number one, listen to our series, How To Manage. You’ll get some great advice from that. Number two, I really appreciate what she’s trying to do: being taken seriously, prove that she can get this team in top shape, that they can be productive. Before she takes action though, I would encourage her to do some thinking around, what does productivity mean in this case? How do you know they’re not productive? What’s the data? Where are you getting that information and how is the team comprised? I mean, she’s got 43 people. I think she’s got to understand a little bit about what’s on their minds, what’s holding them back. There’s a difference between, we’re not productive because the culture here is one of slightly slacking off and not putting a hundred percent in. Or it could be that there’s another team who’s standing in their way, so they’re not able to move things forward.
AMY BERNSTEIN: So diagnose the problem.
AMY GALLO: Exactly.
AMY BERNSTEIN: And bring other people in—people you trust, and probably members of that team because you want to get their perspective, right?
AMY GALLO: Yeah. I would choose a few well positioned influential people on the team to start actually having the conversation with, to understand what’s going on, what’s holding back, what are the challenges, how do you see this? I would also really be very in close touch with her boss because it sounds like she’s trying to prove something that she can be a good manager to this ginormous team, that she can turn things around. But what are the expectations from the senior leaders here?
AMY BERNSTEIN: But also when you’re talking to your manager, I wouldn’t say what are your expectations? I would set expectations because your manager is going to say, “I need you to do this yesterday.” And what you can do in your new role, ’cause by the way, you get a grace period in your new role, is say, “I’m going to need X number of weeks just to understand what’s going on here, and I’m going to need a little time after that to restructure my team.” Not, “Can I restructure my team?” “I need to restructure my team. I cannot have 43 direct reports.”
AMY GALLO: Oh my God. Review time. Review time with 43 direct-
AMY BERNSTEIN: 43 direct reports is at least 35 too many. I just want to call out an article that I think is one of the most helpful for people who are moving into this new role. And it’s a classic called “Becoming the Boss” by Linda Hill.
AMY GALLO: Such a good article.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Such a good article, and it really lays out the difference between solo contributor roles and managerial roles. But it also lays out—I found this helpful when I first moved into a managerial role—the kinds of misunderstandings that we all take into our new role and it’ll save you an awful lot of pain. So, I cannot recommend this highly enough.
AMY GALLO: What I like about it is Linda also normalizes the fact that this is hard to do. The learning curve is going to be so huge. So I think thinking about who does she need, people on the team, her direct manager, is there a mentor in the organization who’s been managing for a while?
AMY BERNSTEIN: That’s smart. Yeah.
AMY GALLO: Who can she get to be supporting her through this transition?
AMY BERNSTEIN: And then one more thing is that it is no secret to her team that she has been recast in a role that is very new to her. So, I would say she should be kind of transparent about this, that “I’m learning and I’m going to need help from all of you.” Don’t turn yourself into a reaction bot. You have to be true to yourself. You have to figure out who you are as a manager and as a leader. And you don’t have to bend to everyone’s feedback, but you have to sift through all the feedback and pick out the stuff that’s going to help you do your job better.
One of the things you want to be transparent about is the goal. And then I would, with transparency, pull the people who are going to have to achieve whatever the goal is together into the conversation about how and make them co-owners of the plan. Right?
AMY GALLO: Yep, absolutely. So she’s not the only one. I mean that question around, I love relationships but I’m afraid of being perceived as a jerk… one of the misconceptions about management is that you can either be compassionate or you can hold people accountable. And you can do both at the same time.
AMY BERNSTEIN: You can. And just think about how you feel, dear listener, when your manager is indecisive. Being decisive is not the same as being a jerk, right?
AMY GALLO: Yeah.
AMY BERNSTEIN: People want direction and you are there to provide direction and you would not be doing your job if you weren’t providing direction. But when you’re providing direction, it’s important to explain the why behind the what so that people understand how you made decisions and so that they can make decisions themselves in alignment with the goal, right?
AMY GALLO: Yep. My empathy goes out to this woman for sure.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Oh my gosh. I would really start with those 43 direct reports. That’s impossible.
AMY GALLO: And at least close contact with her manager, understanding what’s expected of her, but also making some strong relationships on that team right away so that she can navigate it.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Absolutely.
AMY GALLO: But also what an opportunity. I mean, she must have been psyched when she got that role.
AMY BERNSTEIN: This is such a vote of confidence and I hope that she doesn’t lose sight of that.
AMY GALLO: Yeah, agreed. Alright, let’s take the next one. So this person writes to us and says, “I’m currently four years into my project management role and starting to look for what’s next. I feel like my manager is not supportive enough. The topic of career progress only comes up when I initiate it. Last year in my end-of-year review, there was nothing I needed to improve or work on, but nothing new on the horizon either.
“I once brought up the topic of possibly doing an MBA and her first response was, ‘but I didn’t do that either.’ When I asked to do more commercial projects or work with different teams to expand my horizon, she just gives me names of people to have coffee with. It feels like the bare minimum. I think she might be secretly happy where I am because in my current role, I support her a lot and she doesn’t want to lose me. I’ve heard from other colleagues that have confirmed this. How can I have an open conversation with her about this and push through in those moments where she deflects? She’ll say things like, ‘Our company is not quick with promotions or there are a few roles out there, just be patient.’ I value my relationship with her, but I’m starting to feel like she’s keeping me down.”
AMY BERNSTEIN: So first question: why do you value your relationship with her?
AMY GALLO: That’s a good question.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Right?
AMY GALLO: Yeah.
AMY BERNSTEIN: There’s no question that she doesn’t want you to leave your role because that creates a big problem for her.
AMY GALLO: Yes, I agree. That is 90-
AMY BERNSTEIN: But? There’s a but coming.
AMY GALLO: Well, 90% of me agrees that’s absolutely the case, but there’s 10% of me that reads this and thinks, is this a situation where the boss is being really bad at communicating that there just aren’t other opportunities?
AMY BERNSTEIN: It might be that, but there is a way for our listener to ask and be more direct.
AMY GALLO: Yes.
AMY BERNSTEIN: So a couple of thoughts. One is to say, “Listen, I am really feeling restless and I’m ready to move into a more challenging role.” Doing that makes it clear that you’re not going to stay in this job forever, and it’s very important to put down that marker. And what you want to do is give this manager– who, let’s assume, wants what’s right, wants what’s best for you… give her a chance to do the right thing. But don’t give her too much of a chance because this is your one precious life and you don’t need to wait for her to give you permission to find your next role.
Being indirect isn’t going to get you where you want to go. What you want to do is say, “I’ve thought of ways to build my skills, but what I really want is to get to the next job and I think this may be the next job. What do you think about that?” Give her something real to respond to.
AMY GALLO: And I also think find someone who has succeeded in the way, or at least a similar way to what you’re hoping to succeed at in this organization. Is there someone who has moved up several levels? Is there someone who tried out something new? Can you go to that person and say, “What did you do? How did you get there? Who helped you? What were the conversations with HR like?” All of which is helping you then advocate for yourself, but then possibly then giving feedback to your manager and saying, “Oh, so-and-so down the hall was able to do it by this. Their manager did this. Can you do that?” More concrete ideas about what actually works in this system, in this context.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Exactly. And then I would also pull the camera back a bit. You’re a project manager. That’s the hottest field out there. Business is now being organized around projects. There are organizations that serve and train project managers. You know all of them, I bet. You can meet people who may have a line to your next job. It doesn’t have to be at this company. You can grow in a number of ways, but remember that you have the power to choose where you want to go. So your manager is not the only route out of this job to your next job.
AMY GALLO: And project managers are so valuable anywhere at the moment, but also within the organization. So as a project manager, there are probably other senior leaders that you’re talking to. Can you cultivate them as a mentor? Can you get advice about what they would like to see you do next, about whether they did an MBA? And at no point in this whole process do you need to throw your current manager under the bus, but there’s no reason that she should be the only person who’s looking out for you. You have to do it and you can enlist others in helping you do that.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Alright, let’s take the next question.
AMY GALLO: Okay.
AMY BERNSTEIN: “Being relatively new to the company about two years, any advice on how to build a good relationship with my supervisor who’s based in another location and has a favorite direct report? My supervisor’s favorite direct report is my peer who’s been working with him for nine years. She’s very competent, covers a big chunk of the portfolio, and works in the same location as him. They’re very close and he spends time with her for career development, provides guidance and takes her to meetings with key stakeholders. To try to mitigate our lack of proximity, I give him regular updates on what I’m doing and try to get myself involved in high visibility projects. He’s also received good feedback about me from other people I work with. But I’m also finding it hard to trust him because when I share things with him in confidence, he then shares that information with my peer. That makes me reluctant to share anything with him beyond surface-level status updates.
“Additionally, the peer is very territorial, passive-aggressive and has a strong influence on the supervisor. So I’m reluctant to get close to her. I am constantly wondering if I should stay at this company or find another opportunity.” Alright, Amy. Over to you.
AMY GALLO: Yeah, just a simple one. So, there’s a lot going on here. The thing I really hone in on is her comment about being reluctant to become close to the favorite. I mean, she just spent a lot of time laying out how important the favorite is. And I can imagine, given the favorite’s behavior, given the position with the boss, wanting to not touch that with a nine-foot pole, and yet I feel like that might be the clue to so many questions she has; “What does the boss care about? How do I get close to him? What do you do that is so valuable to him?”
Now, I would of course approach that very cautiously. But I think one, I would say, can you travel to their location, even if it’s just for a visit, for a series of meetings, anything to just
